Julianne Brogden – Collaboration Wines – CEO Business Marketing Interview 24

Julianne Brogden Collaboration Wines, talks about what influenced her winemaking career as she observed and worked with top end producers in Napa Valley, US (including Lewis Cellars) and Margaret River, Australia for 8+ years, the story behind Collaboration Wines artwork labelling, why she chose Cabernet Sauvignon for her first Hawke’s Bay vintage and how she is bringing her cult wine ideas to life in an organic way in New Zealand.

Julianne Brogden also shares how she went about getting her first wine sales, getting independent wine writer reviews, Collaboration’s first wine export to Japan and how Collaboration is in many ways, at the very beginning of growing a cult following of their own.

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Ryan: This is the Ryan Marketing show and you’re listening to episode 24 of 100. Today, I’m joined by Jules Brogden from Collaboration Wines in Hawke’s Bay and we’re going to be talking all about starting a winery, wine branding and what it takes to make great wine. So I guess first question for you Jules is, how did you get started?

Jules: Probably go back a bit now, so I was in Napa Valley, well I started here in Hawke’s Bay if I sort of back track through my, basically through my degree. Starting at the age of 17 and studying here in Hawke’s Bay and then I decided I wanted to travel with it so I headed over to Napa Valley, California and I ended up staying there for eight years and it was pretty much just working for small premium producers and really where attention to detail and quality was, it was at the top of what they did. The more time I spent there, and the more I worked with different producers, I realised that I really wanted to get into the top end level and I took a couple of back steps and took cellar hand positions to get into some really top end producers that had a real cult following. It was hard work and to be honest it was hard work being a female because of the smaller producers you worked with the more you had to be hands on, you have to be mechanical, you have to be a combination of everything, the science, the chemistry, work the cellar. You have to be able to work on your feet and they always preferred to have the males and they’d usually put you into the laboratory but I was always very much a hands on person so it was just natural to me that I did the cellar and the laboratory.

I had kind of been there in the Napa Valley for was about three or four years and then I took the cellar hand job at a top end producer, this cult producer, Lewis Cellars and really that was the opening to working for attention to detail premium wine making I really, they loved what they did everything was just about the quality of the wine and also it was about the ethos of the company and they wanted everyone to have a really good time you know it was about food, it was about wine, we’d get chefs in from the local restaurants to come in and cook. You spent so many hours there but it didn’t matter because it was so enjoyable, and everyone shared the same passion and you thrived on it and the Valley itself was so, it was cut throat. Most of the wineries are making 40, 80, $100 wines they’re not dealing with the entry level and that’s the side I saw, I did see the other side to it but the more you start to get up into that cult, top end premium. I mean I didn’t make a wine under $40 and I think to be immersed in that and to be immersed, you could drive up and down the Napa Valley and restaurant after restaurant but it was top class. There’s sommeliers at every restaurant, and I think to be involved at that at such a young age and grow up in that in my 20s, so I spent eight years there, it opened my eyes and I guess my pallet got immersed amongst some top end. So I learnt a heck of a lot and they really know their stuff over there, they’ve been doing it for generations, families have been doing it for generations both on the bitter culture side and the wine making side and the wine makers study, they’ve got top universities there. Davis University and Fresno State but very highly regarded, I think just to be immersed in it was pretty amazing.

So I did time there, eight years total and then I ended up doing a stint, I actually thought I would leave, it was about 2008 and I thought to myself, I kind of wanted to see something else. I ended up heading down to Margaret River, Western Australia and again working with bordeaux varietals and chardonnay and that’s what I worked with a lot in Napa Valley and again I worked for producer who had a lot of small producers or cult following small producers under its umbrella and so again to work alongside lots of different wine makers and you sort of get to see what they do and their approaches. And then the Lewis Cellars asked me to take up the assistant wine maker, or full time. It was sort of assistant wine maker role back in California and I mean it was too good of an opportunity to turn down cause they had a really top cult following, the minute you get into one of those you can be head hunted and your career starts opening up, and job opportunities, moneys great.


Ryan: So you were really using your initial study in New Zealand as the international passport to wine making to at least get the foot in the door in Napa Valley and then at that stage when you initially landed, you had a very clear direction to go towards the quality end of the market and cult end of the market. What does cult mean for someone thats not a wine oficianado, what is a cult wine versus a run of the mill variety?

Jules: I guess, cult, what I saw was a cult following over there was, you know they’ve got data bases, direct data bases where people are signed up in advance. The wine is pretty much sold before it’s even finished, they have no problem in selling $80, $100 wines.

Ryan: So cult meaning that, there is already so much demand for this wine that it’s pre-sold even before the grapes have grown.

Jules: And that’s probably a big broad generalisation but there’s definitely, you see that. Absolutely, and they’ve also got the population to sustain it. Of course they’re just now out of San Francisco and they’ve got the whole of California, I mean most of the wines, people wouldn’t even see outside of California, outside of the states.


Ryan: So you would’ve seen a few differences moving from Napa to then Margaret River, both the wine making styles and also approach to the market with the wines.

Jules: Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan: How do you use, how is that experience now, how have you learnt from that for Collaboration Wines which is your own New Zealand brand of wine?

Jules: Exactly, I think that is what, every winery I’ve been to and every time you’re out in a restaurant and every time you just observe, you watch and you look at how and what wines are seen or perceived in the market place that are incredibly good versus maybe those that aren’t. You look at the packaging, you look at the whole sort of presence of the wine, even down to you know the wine making. What makes a wine so incredibly good that it starts to get a cult following? And you taste the wines, all these different wines, there’s so many out there that you taste them and you got okay well that’s mediocre but that comes from a big producer, or here’s a top end wine, you taste it and go oh my god, this is so incredibly good. Like it just goes on and on and on and lingers in the mouth and it goes straight through you and I think, does that answer your question?

Ryan: Well it kind of does, so I guess there’s two elements, before you get onto the technical wine side of things, whether you’re eating or drinking the first thing you’re looking at is, is the visual side of it. And what I’ve noticed with Collaboration Wines is you’ve taken a different approach and a super visual approach to your wine labelling. Talk us through what was the thinking around that?

Jules: Yes so, that eight years in Napa Valley, I ended up renting a room form the artist, she became a very good friend of mine and beautiful artwork in the living room. She’s pretty amazing, she works between San Francisco and Napa Valley, it’s very abstract artwork and I was very drawn to it and I, personally, I love art. I find it very creative and I love going and seeing art shows and art galleries. So it is a passion of mine as well. I drawn to her artwork and I thought, there was one day we were sitting  in the living room just having a glass of wine and I said, she had this one painting in there and she did it for a client in New York and it was called Argent, which means of the colour silver.

Ryan: Ah that’s what that means.

Jules: Yes so, beautiful big painting and I just used to  love it and I just used to sit there and look at it. As it turns out years on when I went to New Zealand, the painting never sold to the client, the client decided the colours weren’t right for the living room. And I thought, well I want that painting, and that’s going to front my first wine.

Ryan: This is before you started Collaborations?

Jules: This is before I started.

Ryan: So this is really in advance, your almost building your business as you were working for other people’s business’.

Jules: Correct, yeah. So I thought, that’s going to front my cabernet sauvignon and I’m going to do cabernet sauvignon as my first wine. And yes it’s a challenge in Hawke’s Bay, straight cab, but with all my experience in California which is kind of a ripe climate, well a climate that produces ripe wines, my time in Margaret River and working in Hawke’s Bay. I mean I’ve just developed a love for Cabernet, it’s strong, there’s kind of no bullshit to it..(laughs).. I guess it probably best describes me, straight down the line maybe, but it’s gutsy and it’s just a beautiful wine I’ve done well. They say the cabernet is king, well I kind of have to agree sometimes, and it hangs out there all season and it hangs out through the rain and the wind and the disease pressure and it’s usually the last to ripen. If you get the season right it’s a stunning wine and it’s a wine that will age well and you can sell her.


Ryan: Okay so knowing that about how you wanted to present the wine and having that foresight and knowing the variety that you wanted to match with that wine labelling, coming back to Hawke’s Bay, how did you then take those ideas into finding grapes to buy or an area to be able, how do you go from that idea to actually bringing it to life and doing the hard work of a vintage and starting  to bottle it?

Jules: Yeah so, it was tough, so I came back in 08′, and I knew there was going to be no jobs here, in Hawke’s Bay so I was like, well I need to create something, a long term future for myself here in Hawke’s Bay. So that’s when I said to myself well I’d just hit my thirties, if I need to get started I need to get started now and it’s going to be a slow build up and because financially to be able to do it, in the industry, especially here you don’t get paid the big bucks like you do in Napa, I went from Napa down to basically cellar hand salary and so in 2010 or just prior to that obviously because I needed to plan, I need to put down my first ton of fruit so it was one ton and well that’s going to give me a thousand bottles and I thought we’ll start with that, I can probably afford that, with my savings from California. So I thought this is going to look embarrassing going to the producers and going, can I have one ton of fruit but I actually want to work on that one ton, I want to do the bitter culture work myself.

So I actually went to Craggy Range, cause’ I knew they had stunning vineyards, their bitter culters top notch, they’ve got the right sites. I said, I’m after one ton of fruit but I want to come and work it myself, and they were like, okay. And so we came up with a contract, small contract, so that was 2010 so I worked the vines that year and I put down my first Cabernet, a 2010 Argent Cabernet Sauvignon. So in the meantime, so I was thinking about this, if we can get this up and going at the same time while I’m working full time still, so this is working on the vineyard during the weekends and in the evenings after my main job.

Ryan: That’s a bit of juggling.

Jules: It is a bit of juggling, but I kind of was just so driven that I’ve got this final goal in mind, I need to hit it and so that was 2010 and the next year I decided well I’ve got this wine cabernet but I can’t just come out with one wine, there’s kind of no impact there so I decided then, I was like well what other wine do I love making and it’s like, well chardonnay. And again barrel fermented chardonnay, so this time I said to Angela the artist, I said I really want you to create a piece of artwork that complements Argent that is going to be my barrel fermented chardonnay and so she painted this one especially for –

Ryan: Ah so the second one actually became a commission.

Jules: Yes, which is Aurulent Chardonnay.

Ryan: Is that how you say, Aurulent.

Jules: Which means the colour gold, and actually this is an interesting one because, at the time I had designers in San Fransisco. Angela had some really good friends, he’s based out of San Fransisco, very well known designer and she was telling him about what I was up to and he really loved the concept and he loved the name of the company, Collaboration Wines and he’s like, I want to help her out. I want to help put together her labels for her and for a reasonable price and we can do a wine swap. I was like, well this is awesome because Tom Ingalls has got his Ingalls Design, he’s based in San Fransisco, he’s got an incredible port folio, so to actually have him say that was like, wow this is really cool. So I was like, okay, and that way he could work with the artist on the other end back in the States and talking to me at the same time about how we are going to put the labels together. So that was the first two wines.


Ryan: So with those first two, this is now your dream brought to life, you’ve bottled it, labelled it, cellared it for a certain amount of time, then that moment happens that you’ve actually got to go knock on a door somewhere and show them your vision and let them taste it. Where did you go first, what was their reaction, how did you choose where you went first?

Jules: That was pretty daunting, I’d have to say it was sort of, cause’ it’s kind of like your baby and yeah well I like it, I’m pretty sure I know it’s good but it’s putting it out there.

Ryan: And everyone has an opinion.

Jules: And everyone’s got an opinion and wines so individual and I thought well you know what stuff it if people are going to like it people are going to be drawn to my wine so. It’s up to them and it’s up to individuals to decide. I started tapping the restaurants around the Hawke’s Bay to be honest and at Vintage. I went and saw them and said, hey here’s my first two wines would you be interested in tasting them and putting them in your shop and of course, they said yes and then so that started there’s the first sale and the next sale was, I think we had the Emporium at the time. The Emporium took on my 2011 Aurulent and that sold really well there so it was pretty exciting and Mint Restaurant. Mint Restaurant was, that was really cool because I had sort of known Steve, Steve and Ruth they own Mint and I kind of met Steve while I was working as a cellar hand on the bottling line and he said well I’m going to start up my restaurant, Mint Restaurant and I said well here’s my 2010 Cab, it was in barrel at the time, I said taste this. And he said well when the restaurants up and going come and see me. And I’m like, okay, so I did. They’ve listed the wines and they’ve still got the wines on and they’ve been going really well with them, but it was kind of one place after another and it sort of started with a case a month. Sort of twelve bottles and then you know friends and family, and then I got the website up and going and sort of just slowly. I started ringing wine stores around the country but more fine, everything was sort of more aimed at the top end, sort of more fine dining.

Ryan: Yeah I guess that’s kind of what I was going to ask if that experience from overseas had been premium and cold, how do you then, where do you say no to that actually really wants your wine cause the first issue is getting the volume out there then the next issue is saying no to the, making sure your wine’s in the right places.

Jules: Yeah well this is the thing too, I don’t want it to be snobby either, there’s this whole persona around the wine industry which. I didn’t want these wines to be too expensive and I know that even though they are premium and they are top end and I have packaged them like that, I do want them to be approachable and maybe bring in consumer at the lower end.

Ryan: I guess part of the reason it has to be priced at a higher point is because of what goes into it, and hand picking, the labor component, it’s not a machine automated way of making wine.

Jules: And it’s not cheap to make it that way, so that is where the pricing comes in but I didn’t want to go to high and kind of wanted to keep it on the lower end to start, so it was kind of a happy medium and I’m quite happy for, if I went in and if I like the people and they like my wines and there’s a reciprocal relationship then I would love my wines in their restaurant or their place.

Ryan: So it’s really restaurant first?

Jules: Yeah and wine stores, but sort of fine wine stores, not sort of the Liquor King and all that because they wouldn’t take my wines anyway.

Ryan: Right.

Jules: I’d have to be making quite a lot of wine to be pushing through that sort of.


Ryan: Yeap. So how many labels and varieties have you got now from those initial two silver and gold?

Jules: So now I’ve got, on top of that I’ve got another premium, Ceresia, so it’s all based on colours and it fits in with the paintings so Argent, Aurulent and Ceresia and that’s a merlot cabernet blanc. And then I bought in the Impression Red which sits underneath that and of course that enables me in those challenging years or when I can’t make the premiums and I know the premiums aren’t up to quality, it will go into the Impression Red but I also, that was in 2012 I made that first wine but was the most challenging vintage that I think Hawke’s Bay had in a long time so I knew I was going to come up against that at one stage and I thought well we will put out the Impression Red, it’s an impression of the vintage and it’s an impression of her artwork really.

Ryan: So I guess that gives you then something to fall back on which is where other premium wine makers, wineries have been exposed in bad years because your between a rock and a hard place because you either make wine that doesn’t fit the label and brand and reputation you’ve built up or you don’t do it and then you go out of business because you don’t have capital to support it. So it sounds like smart decision to have that next tier down wine always able to be made.

Jules: But I guess, I never wanted to really go at the lower end because you have to sell so much more and your margins are less so the Impression Red sits around the $25 mark, I don’t want to go any lower than that, then the premium, the top ends, my chardonnay sits at 35 and then the reds are 40 or 45 retail.

Ryan: I think that’s kind of an area to segway into the awards that your wines have received, we were talking about the different varieties and how many you’ve got now, across the wines that you’ve now got available, what are some of the highlights of the external validation that, hey this is a stunning wine and when you saw the article or you saw the publication where, alright this is kind of external validation where my vision of how it tastes and feel and be seen, now there’s a tick in the box out.

Jules: It started happening when I first released the cabernet, yeah pretty blown away, the accolades that started to come.The 2010 Argent that got I think it was, Jane Skilton, I really respect Jane Skilton and I think theres a lot of wine writes in New Zealand that are independent wine writers who, they can write what they want and I like that and you know what, if they don’t like it, they’ll write it, and I’m like, that’s good and that’s what I want. I just don’t want airy fairy, I want straight to the point, you know if you don’t like it or tell me or, so anyway I sent it through to Michael Cooper, Michael Cooper’s another one, independent wine writer who I really respect. Again he will say it like it is, and Jane Skilton, master of wine. Joe Burzynska again another independent wine writer, and then there’s.. so anyway, Jane Skilton. First review I got, she did for the independent wine monthly and it was really cool cause’ it was my cabernet and she rang me up and she says, oh my god Jules, love your cabernet. And I was just stoked because she’s a master of wine, she’s got quite a strong, brutal reputation and she’s like, it’s just brilliant and she says, it’s not green, it’s not herbal, it’s not you know, good old Hawke’s Bay sort of style and she’s like, it’s stunning. She says, it’s well crafted and so anyway she wrote an article for me in the independent wine monthly that she writes for and she said that I’d spent eight years in Napa Valley, California and I had a deft hand with cabernet savignon and I was like, yes! That’s good. It’s a good start.


Ryan: Did you find that that review translated into direct sales?

Jules: No.

Ryan: Have you found that with any of the rewards you’ve got?

Jules: I don’t think I’ve ever touched the surface or people actually know, it’s starting to. Initially no because I think it was like, how do you get it out there? You’ve got this review, I mean that’s great but I’m not known, I’ve probably got ten like on my Facebook page and you know what I’m saying?

Ryan: So you really just let it organically grow through the local restaurants that have support you and from the premium wine retailers that either sell it online or through local liquor outlets.

Jules: And the reviews really, so it’s been organic and I guess with working the full time job it has been, it’s been a challenge but I like the organic approach, and also I like the word of mouth approach because nothings kind of stronger than that and it’s allowing me to do it slowly and make sure. You know I’m in it for a long time, not a short time, so I want it to be long and slow and solid.

Ryan: And organic growth is the best way to do that. Then how do you determined when that moment is where the full time job moves away and your full time job becomes Collaboration?

Jules: I think that will just, I think I’ll just know. I’ll know it’s time to go, and time to move on. I’m starting to see sales are increasing, my distributor came on board a couple of years ago, so for the first year I was hand selling it myself, which is a heck of a lot of work and once you start getting, you know you’ve got so many listings but it’s only like twelve bottles here, six bottles here, two bottles here, one here and it’s, if you think about it, all that invoicing and dealing with those people, following up money it was like, can’t do this.

Ryan: There’s huge engagement cost isn’t there to just get one outlet on board and it may just be for the summer venue.

Jules: Yeah, exactly.

Ryan: Just for a case.

Jules: And it’s turned over and they’ll pick up the next wine so I was very fortunate actually, Dhall & Nash Fine Wines so I’d met Brandon Nash, here in Hawke’s Bay, he’s got a really good following here in Hawke’s Bay with the restaurants and reputation and they built up a very strong company. And their sort of philosophy is very much, probably what aligned with what I do is it has started from small business and a passion for fine wine and they really are in with a lot of the top end restaurants around the country and they very much about hand sell, very much about boutique and really they’ve followed in the same sort of ethos that I felt with my own company if that makes sense.

Ryan: And I guess they help you and they help the restaurants because they are minimising your costs of engagement with hundreds of restaurants and at the same time they make it really easy for a restaurant to order from a huge number of boutique wine companies.

Jules: Yeah exactly and now I’ve probably got about 50, 60 accounts. I couldn’t do that by myself.

Ryan: Not and make the wine.

Jules: And make the wine as well, so I need to focus on what, I certainly am very much out in the trade and being out in the trade and selling my wines is really important to me and it’s important to engage in the people, they need to know who’s made this wine. What’s behind it what’s the story, the story is incredibly important and I’ve learnt that over the years sort of watching and observing and selling other peoples wines.

Ryan: Are you using trade shows or events or festivals to get that story out there as well?

Jules: Yeah definitely, so I’ve attended the new Zealand boutique wine festival for four years in a row now. And that’s in Auckland, and that’s been really good platform and that’s actually got Auckland up, I’m going quite strongly in Auckland, well it’s strong for a small producer. Really starting to get in some very top end restaurants up there and so that’s been really good, I’ll be attending the Hawke’s Bay wine celebration in Wellington this year and that’s with the whole of all the Hawke’s Bay wineries. So I think the more my wines are seen up against the bigger producers and seeing that the quality is there just like the other producers, it needs to be done and people need to see it. And the Hawke’s Bay charity wine auction, I’ve found that’s been really good because especially in with the locals, that events been going for years now and there’s a real strong following there and strong group of people that go there and I think to sort of start putting my wines out there again was the more well established wineries. It’s been important.


Ryan: Now I also noticed that it’s not just New Zealand restaurants and retail that enjoy the Collaboration wines, that you’ve got something in place with Japan on the exporting side? So that’s big success point, how did that come about and what is it?

Jules: Yeah that was really exciting actually again it happened organically it was probably my second year and I had a phone call from Bill Vincent and he runs in Mount Eden a fine wines store up there, really beautiful little boutique wine store and he’s got amazing wines from all around the world and he procures ones for Wakanui Bar and Grills in Tokyo Japan, so he basically scouts out around the country for all the boutiques, small premium producers, wines that he think will work well on Wakanui’s wine list and so it’s New Zealand beef and lamb, in Tokyo and all New Zealand wines on the list so anyway he was scouting because he was looking for a replacement for a cabernet and he was scouting for carbenets on the internet and he came across and of course I’d started to get the Parker reviews which for anyone who doesn’t know, Robert Parker or The Wine Advocate is an international fine wine publication and I guess, I’ll side track here, once you start getting in the 90s on that publication you are starting to get I guess you could say into the – well I’m not cult status just yet – you know, your wines are pretty up there. So my wines, my cabernets to date, my first three Cabs have all hit in the 90s and my first four, five chardonnays have all been in the 90s which is really good so he saw those reviews online and he said can you send me some samples? And I said sure, so I sent him some samples and he said absolutely lovely wine, he said I really want to put your wines forward for the next shipment to go to Japan. I said, really, that’s awesome. So I did and they loved it and they ended up taking the chardonnay as well, so it’s been really cool.

Ryan: So I guess that shows the importance of not just supporting the retailers of your wine, but also making sure that you do have those credibility indicators with reviews out there and that you do have your online presence so that when people are researching you, they’re finding all the things that give them enough confidence to actually give you a call.

Jules: Correct, yeah exactly.

Ryan: And then your wine needs to actually –

Jules: Stand up.

Ryan: Follow through once you send the samples.

Jules: Exactly, so it’s.. everything they say has organically happened and has occurred like that and the more I see, I’ve only touched the surface Facebook, I’ve got so much work to do on social media, I need to revamp. I need to look at everything and sort of, three four years on now I need to revamp my website, I need to come up with an actual social media plan, because I’ve seen how much. Like even my little 350 likes on Facebook, I’ve put up posts on that, and I’ve been out and about and people are going, oh my god I’ve seen your post, or hey that’s an awesome review or they’ve turned up to a tasting at Mount Eden in Auckland or they’ve turned dup to the Boutique Wine festival and I’ve actually been, I was kind of blown away because I was kind of sceptical at first. I was like oh, Facebook, you know but –

Ryan: It’s the most efficient word of mouth, people have got a billboard on them in their pockets, 24 hours a day almost.

Jules: I mean how could I have done that without, sitting in my living room, have reached that many people, and that actually got some of my first sales as well through my website. So, it was mainly fiends and family of course but it was like an instant, oh here’s a post websites up and running and oh I got some sales, everyone was like cool. But I couldn’t have done that without having a presence online and yeah.

Ryan: It will be interesting to come back and have a chat with you in a few years once you’ve made all those changes to see actually where that then gets you, if you were to, I mean Julianne you’re obviously someone who’s got a very long term vision that you’re executing on now for your business, for Collaboration, in fast forward ten twenty years from now, what does it look like? What have you achieved, what is the picture completely realised, what does that look and feel like?

Jules: Oh it’s amazing. (laughs) So I’ve got a cellar door here somewhere in Hawke’s Bay, haven’t quite figured out where it is yet, and I’ll have all the original artworks back from California, they’ll be, and they’re beautiful big original paintings, they’re going to be on the wall. So I have my own tasting room, probably be appointment only. Probably because I do such small volumes anyway, and I just want people to come in and, it’ll be a sit down experience because it is an experience and it’s not just a … well it has to be a whole experience, that’s what it’s all about, and with the artwork. And if I have enough to just make a decent income for myself I think I’d be really happy to be able to stay here in Hawke’s Bay and yeah just financially make it viable I think because our industry is tough and a lot of people have, yeah I’ve seen ups and downs over the last 20 years and like I think everyone else has, you watch and you observe the companies that do well and those that don’t and yeah.

Ryan: I think what I like about your story is that you are deliberately avoiding taking a whole lot of cash and growing super big and having a whole lot of debt, and that you’re very happy and comfortable growing organically at a pace that not only suits you but suits how the awareness of Collaboration Wines is organically growing, and so that makes for a much stronger foundation when your business is seven, ten twelve years old so I congratulate you for taking that route in a time in the market where it could be very easy to take the short cut route for growth.

Jules: Yeah, thank you. It feels right too. And it feels its not stressful and it shouldn’t be stressful and I don’t want it to be stressful, so I think that organic approach and that calm and positive and being in a good place in all that, it all kind of, everything incorporates sort of that, I guess that organic approach.

Ryan: Now on a practical note, I haven’t ordered form your website yet, can you do a mix dozen and if I order that online, it’ll get sent out for the weekend?

Jules: Yeah absolutely, I’d be wrapped.

Ryan: Excellent I’ll make sure I do that. Thanks very much for your time Julianne and good luck in the future.

Jules: Pleasure. Thank you.